In this episode, Roemer Visser and Richard Boyatzis explore what actually fuels sustained change. Boyatzis is crystal-clear: “So it turns out that vision is the driver of change, of sustainable change. Purpose. The big picture, not the micro.” Goals come later—“Now, I’m not saying goals aren’t useful, but they’re useful way down the process.” He even warns against opening meetings with numbers: “Show me a leader who opens a meeting with financials. I’ll show you an ineffective leader.”

Leadership, they agree, lives in the quality of connection. “Leadership is not about a leader. It’s about the relationships that they have with the people around them… That means that what we should be doing when we think and talk about leadership is focus on the relationships.”

Motivation follows the same logic: “The motivator of change is not a discrepancy.” What moves people is a positive emotional state, which he calls a PEA or Positive Emotional Attractor, such as possibility and “Hope. The key emotion is hope.” And to keep teams learning and creative: “It’s very hard to make sense of things unless you can periodically go into this positive emotional attractor state.”

Returning to purpose

The episode stays practical. For teams wrestling with accountability, Boyatzis recommends returning to purpose: talk with people about why the team is doing what it’s doing, and do it often in short touchpoints—think a series of 10–15 minute conversations, each kicked off by purpose. When the pressure rises, don’t push harder; prepare better. Visualization, he notes, is a powerful form of preparation.

Curious about the whole conversation? Listen to the episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or YouTube.

About Richard Boyatzis

Richard Boyatzis is a Distinguished University Professor at Case Western Reserve University, and professor in the Departments of Organizational Behavior, Psychology, and Cognitive Science. He is a fellow of the American Psychological Association, Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology and the Association for Psychological Sciences. His open online courses at Coursera have reached 1.5 M students from 215 countries, and he was recently ranked in the 1% of all scientists worldwide by PLOS biology. He is the author of more than 200 articles and nine books on leadership, motivation, behavior change, emotional intelligence, and managerial competencies, and his latest book, published in 2024, is called The science of change: Discovering sustained, desired change from individuals to organizations and communities.

About Roemer Visser

Host Roemer Visser is an expert on the human side of organizations and is Executive Professor and Academic Director of the Executive MBA at TIAS.

About the Rethinking Leadership podcast

Deep conversations, fresh insights—leadership, re-examined.

In the Rethinking Leadership podcast, we dive into the complexity of leadership. Whether you’re working to earn trust, to grant trust, or to inspire others with your stories, leadership is always a challenge. Guided by Executive Professor Roemer Visser, we explore new perspectives and deeper insights. Listen to inspiring conversations with thought leaders and discover surprising approaches to leadership challenges.

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